HTC HD2 First Day Sales Numbers?


I think it will not be a surprise for most of you to learn that the HTC HD2 sold quite a bit during its first day.  Current rumors, and we emphasize the rumor portion here, peg first day sales at 21,700 units between retail and employee sales only.  Our tipster says these numbers do not include phone sales and we are not sure if that includes online orders as well. If those are missing, we are sure to see this number spike north.  I have gone hands on with this device quite a bit in the past few days at CTIA (again, since we have already reviewed it) and I just love this device. (Moreover, please, quit your complaints about it not having Android on it.  It does not have it and it might never, so give upThis isn’t the Windows Phone of old; this thing is a beast.  So, if you have even a remote interest, go try one out at a local T-Mobile store and you’ll get convinced pretty quickly it’s that awesome!)  This is a Windows Phone powerhouse, easily the strongest multimedia phone and arguably the strongest phone currently in the T-Mobile lineup.

We cannot confirm these numbers, yet we are posting them because, well, it is what we do.  When we get further confirmation or an update, you will know where to find the information!

For the record, my friends at Wirefly shot me over this quote:

“Wirefly blew through its initial inventory (that they’d planned to last one week) before 3 PM and had to make an emergency order to keep up with the demand.”

Guess Windows 6.5 isn’t dead yet!


  • Max

    With all due respect David, we are not complaining.It kinda make you cringe when you see all the attention other networks have been getting lately (Android hardwares) and all t-mo been doing is releasing a whole bunch of first generation phones.T-mobile has so much potential and i know they can do better than that.Regarding android users: Android fans are one of the most enthusiastic crowd out there.They know what they want and they refused to settle for less.It’s simple!

    • Manny

      They are also some of the most whiniest, if a phone doesn’t have android it pretty much sucks. Not saying all android users are like this though, but others are.

    • ps

      what ever happened to the promise of all types of phones running Android? I remember before the G1 launched Google was saying that it could run on anything from a Touch Screen form factor (as it does today) to a Blackberry form factor, to a flip phone. Almost 2 years later and not even a sample of another style. Sorry to go off topic here ( GO HD2!!!!! )

      • mmaxxsooner

        Ahhh, the promises of an american conglomerate that is google!! Wtf wake up they are looking to bury all in their path, and as far as the fruit company is concerned… Gobble their ass up, so tired of seeing people scream into the damn fruit filled phone cause it sucks as a wait for it… Wait for.. it’s a fuck#in phone! Not an ipod touchy with phone capabilities! Wow give the hd2 the love it deserves which is wdm 6.5

      • Joe

        Obviously there are Android phones with and without QWERTY keyboards. There are Android tablets coming to market, and Android is even finding its way into set top boxes and automotive nav/entertainment units. Granted nothing that looks like a Blackberry has come out yet, and who would really want an Android flip phone anyways(?), but just give it time. Remember the G1 only came out 18 months ago. Once the manufacturers get comfortable with it I’m sure we’ll see more variety.

    • BKJames

      Exactly..WTF? windows 6.5 isn’t dead? Oh yeah this is why only T-mo is getting this phone out of the major carriers..anyway my friend has this phone..hardware is great.

    • Davidohio

      You are not complaining??? I have rad at least 100 posts of android fans complaining that the HD2 is not Android. Your statement is just not true. Period. I have a G1 and am an Android phone but I have not posted 1 single comment about this device not having Android. There are Winmo fans and there are Android fans. They got theirs and soon enough we will have ours, but complaining will not make it happen any faster.

    • MoJo..HD@

      This Is just ONE PHONE MAX…why can’t you android guys just give it a rest on how it would have been better with android…HEY NOT TO MENTION THAT sprint is getting that HTC EVO/supersonic…go get that when it comes out and leave us alone…(said with sarcasim)and trust me I will not be on an android site sayin all kinds of dumb stuff about your os..because it is not for me and i have REALIZED that and stuck with what i like…which is WINDOWS…there is no need for to bash android so you should respect what MS and HTC have done here…NEW phone are made everyday because not everyone likes the same things..and my FRIEND THIS HD2 WAS MEANT FOR US AND NOT YOU, SO DON’T WORRY IM PRETTY SURE THE htc evo WILL BE MEANT FOR YOU….$200, my fav OS and a new contract with my favorite carrier is the best, does not bother me at all….)I bet people will be paying an arm and leg for that that EVO because of people like you making android seem like its god…

      • alex

        sarcasim sim salabim

    • Namo

      @Max True but paying $500+ for a nexus a killer in peoples pocket. Plus people with Family Plan cant upgrade. That had killed nexus sales number big time.

      • jdog

        @Namo Just remember that we don’t pay high as bills like people do on other carriers so most of us can afford a Nexus One, I only pay $59.99/month. On AT&T you pay at least $110/month then if you want to you can bye an iPhone for $699. So people need to look at as if they were on a different network you would be paying at least a $1000 more for the phone plus their bill for 2 years. Example AT&T with unsub iPhone= $3,099 and T-mobile unsub Nexus One= $1,970

    • patient

      Hmm… this blog’s name is tmo news, I thought it was more about reporting and maintaining neutrality on what’s new with t-mobile Why so opinionated/attacking our personal choices? I thought this was a place where people can discuss/debate ideas but I guess not?

      I guess you are on the HD2 advertising payroll

      • Mo

        I don’t think telling people to stop spamming some variation of the phrase “no android=no buy” is being opinionated/attacking personal choices.

      • ItsMichaelNotMike

        I still have yet to get any of the Android fanboys to explain why they are posting on a WinMo thread. All that does is ID who the morons are.

        Like I have said over and over again, I don’t hang out over at iPhone sites or Android pages dissing Apple or Android. (And in regards to Android I have a G1, posted lots of videos on YouTube that have got over 100,000 views, and have had the G1 since January 2009, so it’s not like I don’t know about the G1 and Android).

        When you say someting like “This fails, no Android” what are you attempting to accomplish? And what are you doing on this site? What’s really stupid is that you all say the same thing, “Wish this had Android” “Oh, it has outdated WinMo on it.” “Fail” “Hey everyone, just want you to know I’m a dumb fcuk.” “This would be hot with Android on it.” “Oh, another crappy WinMo phone.” “Android rules.” Yes, I really am a sheet for brains.” “If this had Android I’d buy it in a heartbeat.” “Boy are you people stupid who buy this phone.” “A stupid phone for stupid people.” “I’m waiting for this phone when Sprint has it, with Android.” “My IQ is 60, beat that.” “You should look at the EVO before buying this.” “WinMo will be no longer, MS is abandoning it, there won’t be any support for this phone, suckers.” “My wife left me because she said I was a failure. She’s right.” “I bought the HD2 and after looking at it for ten minutes I returned it because it’s a POS.” “Ha ha ha T-Mobile is a bunch of losers, can’t get a better phone than this.” “I’ll keep using my myTouch until a gooder Android phone comes out.” “The cheapest Android phone is better than this POS.” “I have to go, my parole officer is coming to check my computer to make sure I don’t have any sex stuff on it.”

        Etc., etc., etc.

      • alex

        im going to call a waaaaaaaaaaambulance for you. its a blog. it has opinions. deal with it.

      • alex

        Im going to get you a waa waa waambulance! its a blog. it has opinions. deal with it.

      • jdog

        @ItsMichaelNotMike You have a good point but it all negated by the fact that you didn’t realize this is not a Windows thread my misinformed friend it’s a T-mobile one so people can say what they want pretty much as long as its about this carrier. Sorry but U DUM BOI

      • beej

        @patient- h….but you said it right: it’s a BLOG! It’s not a news site. They can offer opinion anytime they want. What are reviews? Opinion.

        @jdog- your “response” to ItsMichaelNotMike didn’t really make any sense to me. Would you really go to the Dell 10 post and complain that it’s not a MacBook or other laptop? Yes, you can say whatever you want, but so can those who ridicule you for finding it necessary to comment on WinMo-based Phone posts about the “greatness” of Android.

      • patient

        @ jdog- going off that statement, it would be a double standard to tell people not to disclose their opinions on the HD2

        Why is saying win mo rocks or hd2 ruLEZ not spam but no android, pass spam?

        It’s not like some1 saying FIRST! in which case they should fry in hell

      • patient

        i meant at beej

      • jdog

        @beej Would you please point out to me where in my comment did I say anything about Android. The only I was talking about is how he said this is a Windows Mobile thread and there should be not talk about Android or any other OS, you ever heard of free speech. You can’t tell me other anybody else what we can and can not write about, we don’t get censored like in China.

  • dsim91

    This will be tmo’s best seller of all time



    • Tig


      :) (I KIID)

  • xOneSainTx

    I ordered mine via Customer Service. I can’t wait….I got two of the best phones on Tmobile! I got the Nexus One and the HTC HD2….sooooo g33ky!

    • ItsMichaelNotMike

      Congratulations. That’s an awesome couple phones to have.

      I was going to get another phone (besides the HD2 that I bought yesterday) to replace my G1 that my girlfriend is using, but I want to put that on hold because I am sure there’s some summer T-Mobile phones that will be tempting, or we will just wait for the holidays.

      But her G1 is really getting old, at 13 months.

      Mark my words, holiday season 2010 will make our heads explode. The EVO is just a teaser. That phone is hot. I really like the way HTC is going with the colored interior compartment. The HD as a yellow interior, the EVO is red. That is just a really cool touch.

      And I suspect HTC has some really hot stuff planned.

      • DotNetCoderAZ

        Amazing how 5~10 years ago, a device wasn’t old until it was at least 2 years old and your contract was coming up for renewal… now, 13 months and it’s getting long in the tooth! lmao… nice :)

  • ag

    I appreciate your man crush on the hd2 David but its really becoming annoying. You like it, we understand. I really don’t need all the homerism on every hd2 article.

    • ItsMichaelNotMike

      Who is “we” all the other thread crapping idiots on here?

      Don’t include me when making moronic comments. I apprecite a T-Mobile news site discussing the HD2.

      • jdog

        Include me in the “we” cause I’m the one who said Windows 6.5 is a dead OS in the first place. Besides David likes HTC Sense not basic Windows 6.5, everybody here knows that if it was just 6.5 they would not buy this phone like people do with Android (Nexus One, Droid, G1, Mytouch, etc..). Also if you read your other comment above I already proved just how moronic you are.

      • DotNetCoderAZ

        @jdog: Yes, yes, yes… you have no life and nothing better to do with your time than spam about how dead WinMo 6.5 is… but, let me tell you this much… for a dead O/S, it still brings me in a nice paycheck every two weeks. So, go ahead, keep spouting off about how dead it is, ok?


      • Josh

        @ jdog

        Are you “Just some douch” or another troll just like him?

        Either way just go back to your hole. As we said hundred times we don’t need Android Fanboys (trolls, tools, spammers) like you here in Windows Mobile related posts.

        Keep your opinion for yourself people like you and post it in Android (or better say Craproid) related post.

        People like you with their stupid comments disgust me.

    • Tig

      Speak for yourself ag – the HD2 is awesome and deserves all the positive press it gets! Go eat one K?

  • Craiger_B

    I can’t put this phone down. My children think my face is the back of an HD 2. No worries though, I plan on showing my face this weekend. I wonder if my boss has seen a drop in productivity? Hear ye, o lovers of Android, ye shall not be disappointed. Forsake your OS and walk in victory with your HD2 toting T-Mo brethren!

  • Danny Thai

    I am posting this from my htc hd2 right now using swype. let me tell you guys, this phone is c screaming fast! for all those windows mobile haters out there, you really need to check this phone out. this phone basically radically transformthe windows mobile experience that you know.ious so fast,I have yet to experience ant lag yet.also, windows mobile works surprisingly well on the capacitive notsure why they didn’t implement this sooner. hands down, this phone rocks the socks off the iphone and android devices

    • mmaxxsooner

      Damn dude your english skills, or lack thereof, might scare people to think that swype turns them into some kind of gangsta punk winmo lovin fool, please for the Rest of us STFU. We get It, android is crap, long live the also ran that is winmo! (Did we all think that redmond was that stupid? No! They just test their shit first). So they don’t get 1.5 1.6, 2.0, 2.1. Fragmentation Donut, cake, eclair, ballsucker who cares they suck! Whatever in the hell release they are on! Face it winmo will make huge strides in fy10 because they know that people want consistency, something android sorely lacks, bigtime!

  • Danny Thai

    im actually going to buy four moreif these devices later this week

  • da9th_one

    “Moreover, please, quit your complaints about it not having Android on it, it does not have it, and it might never so give up. This isn’t the Windows Phone of old, this thing is a beast.”

    Tell it like it is brotha…!!! I’m glad this thing has wm 6.5 on it, because android sucks, and windows phone 7 is going to really suck…

    Although I prefer devices w/ a physical qwerty keyboard, i.e. my good ol’ tp2, the hd2 will allow me to extend the wm 6.5 goodness and steer free of wmp7 altogether…

  • Jshin

    Ordered mine yesterday at noon and I am still impatiently waiting for my tracking number, Beware customer service reps I will be calling tomorrow if the phone hasn’t shipped yet to get my 20 bucks back! 3 days means 3 days and Since I ordered it at noon yesterday, Today is a day, Tomorrow is a day and Saturday it better be on my front step or refund on my 20 dollar express 3 day delivery fee I will get.

    • mrgibbs

      3 business days….business days do not include weekends….and when you order…you are told this….hope you enjoy your phone once you get it though. Is def a bad ass phone

    • Jennifer

      UPS will not deliver for T-Mobile on Saturdays.

    • Davidohio

      @jshin….yeah you will get it Monday because Saturday is NOT a business day so you wasted 20 bucks. Should have got free ground delivery, you still would have got it Monday. Good luck getting a refund on your 20 bucks.

      • ohheelno

        @Davidohio, they would NOT get the package on monday with the free shipping. 3 business days = Thursday Friday Monday (delivery date), ground shipping = Thursday Friday Monday Tuesday Wednesday (earliest delivery date) Thursday Friday (latest delivery date). They are BOTH business days, so shin would have have to wait up to 4 days longer is he/she selected ground shipping. Get your facts straight before belittling someone else’s decisions.

      • beej

        @ohheelno- do you know where he lives? Those are some exact groud shipping dates. Sometiems ground can be faster than 3-day (depoending on where they ship from).

      • ohheelno

        @beej those are the guaranteed shipping dates. I never claimed that I knew where he lived nor that it wouldn’t get there sooner, but Davidohio made it seem like a guarantee based on his statement…when by the expected delivery that UPS provided, that is absolutely false. While there is a CHANCE it could get there by monday, it wouldn’t be guaranteed like express would, so jshin did not “waste” 20 dollars”.

    • ItsMichaelNotMike

      How did you order it, UPS or USPS? I ALWAYS specify USPS because that means you can get it on a Saturday. Moreover, when T-Mobile uses USPS shipping is by Priority Mail which means two to three day delivery.

      On every phone that I have ordered on a Wednesday I have always received it either on the following Friday or Saturday.

      Example: When I ordered my Touch Pro2 on August 12, 2009 (a Wed.) it arrived at my P.O. Box on Saturday, August 14. I was lucky that my P.O. box was just big enough that the package fit into the box otherwise I would not have been able to pick it up until Monday.

      Getting the Touch Pro2 on a Saturday ended up dictating how I spent the balance of my weekend. LOL.

      Oh, that two to three day estimate is even when the phones are shipped from coast to coast (Georgia to San Francisco in my case).

      Tip: T-Mobile gives you a long estimate so that you don’t call them asking where is your phone. So if you used USPS you will get it by Saturday if you get Saturday mail delivery.

      I don’t know about UPS, but I suspect they are way slower. Also, I thought T-Mobile was using FedEx, not UPS. Either way, I think FedEx ground is slow too.

      • ItsMichaelNotMike

        I mean Saturday, August 15.

      • ohheelno

        Sorry, but I am an employee of Customer Care, and we NEVER use USPS unless the customer’s address on file is a P.O. Box, or if the customer is based in Hawaii. We always use UPS, and the estimated delivery time we give you based off of the time frame UPS guarantees their delivery. If they say 5-7 business days, the estimated delivery date we will give you is going to OBVIOUSLY be the 7th business day, but we ALWAYS provide you with information on how to check the website so you can see the true delivery date when it becomes available…it has nothing to do with us “giving a long estimate so that you don’t call back asking where the phone is”.

      • ItsMichaelNotMike

        Well I have a P.O. Box so that explains why they use USPS. Pardon the mistake, but no one has ever told me that the reason they ship USPS is because of the P.O. Box.

        Guess all I can say is “Get a P.O. Box.” :) I have had P.O. boxes since college days. Mail is more secure, you don’t have to always change your address when moving, you are not always giving out your residence address, and you can get T-Mo phones faster than if shipped by UPS.

  • ggfb20

    I totally agree, I am a long time WM user and have had them all from the original HTC Touch, to the Touch pro and so one, prior to the arrival of the HD2 I was using the Dash 3G. The HD2 has completely answered all of my requests in a phone except one at the moment, I would like for the HD2 to have some sort of app that streams Netflix to the device, and it wouldn’t hurt for MS to add an updated version of Silverlight. All in All this HD2 rocks like crazy, I have had zero lags and i must have already added many apss and even made a few tweeks. David I feel the same way about this phone man. While we are at it, what are some of the apps that youall have added to your HD2 thus far?

    • Double U Dee

      We’re pretty much in the same boat. I was rocking the T-Mo Dash and was ready to get rid of that thing. The HD2 has finally giving me all the things i’ve been looking for in a phone. I get the easy access to my work’s MS Exchange email, multimedia capabilities, access to movies, GPS, etc, etc. it just does everything I need a phone to do without needing a special app or hacking into the phone. The apps available aren’t bad at first glance.

      I’ve only downloaded the SkyFire browser which is pretty good. I’m really hoping they get a Netflix streaming app because i’m already using at home on the PS3 and laptop.

  • zazou

    No matter what OS this phone has on it, the fact is that this is the best hardware that Tmobile has ever offered. They usually just have average hardware and charge a premium for it.

  • Bobomo

    “So, if you have even a remote interest, go try one out at a local T-Mobile store, you’ll get convinced pretty quick, it’s that awesome!”

    I went to a store and tried one out and was not convinced enough to buy it. You see, some of us don’t get all googly eyed over shiny, flashy electronic shit and actually make informed purchases. If I’m going to give a cell phone company several thousand dollars over the life of a contract, I want to be damn sure that my phone will still be meeting my needs at the end of that contract. Since I don’t give a damn about “Transformers” and Blockbuster will probably be out of business in a year, I’m not being swayed by T-Mobile’s talking points.

    As for the OS, what I care about is that it’s going to be agile enough to meet future needs. I’m not sure where mobile web is going exactly, but if it involves Flash at all, it’s highly likely that the HD2 will be left behind. If Mozilla’s browser does in the mobile market even a fraction of what it accomplished in the desktop market it will be a massive success… and one that won’t happen on the HD2. There is a reason people want Android on this phone, and it’s not JUST because they are whiny fanboys. It’s because Google is moving the mobile marketplace in new directions – free navigation, fully integrated text-to-speech, use of QR codes – and customers want to get on the moving train. Over the course of the next 2 years – primarily 2011 – whatever new happens in the mobile space is going to be happening on Android, iPhone, WP7 (maybe WebOS and Meego) but probably not on Windows Phone Classic or Starter or whatever.

    Rant aside, I’m happy for those who got this phone, and I’m happy T-Mobile sold a lot. Good for them and good for you.

    • MoJo..HD@

      whatever….JEEZ…why are there haters on here…if you do not like the HD2 do not open up this blog and read our moments of JOY….JEEEEZZZZZ….(IF you are broke and can’t afford to spend $200 on a great phone then you shouldn’t be shopping for a phone….ME…I have no problem starting a new 2 year contract with tmobile cuz i will be with them forever….(If people want android on this baby…just go sign a contract with more money most likely and get the HTC EVO/Supersonic..that has android on it and most of the same specs as the HD2, and an HDMI port and 8 mega pixel CAM..that will make you android loving fools happy, then you guys can leave us alone..)…DO YOU GUYS NOT SEE THE NAME OF THIS WEBSITE (TMONEWS) all i want to here about is what is the HOTTEST NEWS in tmobile…and that my Friend is the HD2 with WINDOWS MOBILE ON IT… all you people who hate THIS PHONE just SHUT THE F**CK UP AND GO SOME WHERE ELSE…OR JUST NOT COMMENT.

      • Bobomo

        Please learn how to correctly type the English language before lecturing me on how and when I should comment. (HINT: When holding the shift key, the “@” symbol will appear instead of a “2”) At least my comments had some substance and reasoning instead of just a random jumble of poor grammar, bad spelling and childish insults.

        If the writer of this blog didn’t want a discussion of Android, he should not have made mention of it in the article. These discussions generate lots of page hits; I think he knows exactly what he’s doing.

      • you hdwindows

        why are people so worried about the way you type on the fuckin INTERNET, this isnt a business deal or school paper..i swear the things people choose to critique about is just nonsense. as for my opinion, i dont understand how poeple can possibly say that wm is oudated when it can do everything android/iphone can do and then some..wm 5 can do all that shit as well, people are hating on the HD2, go buy you a nexus1 and be happy, get off the HD2 articles with the hate. i have had 2 android devices a iphone && 3 blackberries and they are no better than wm, the dam androids are forever force closing and lags just as well, and the update shit? pls the newest of android phones till running 1.5 but no shade because i like all mobile os’s but wm has to be my fave because the computer like capabilities

      • MoJO…HD@@@@

        BOBOMO…I dont give a flying monkeys a$$ how I type on the F**ckin internet…as long as people understand what i am say that is all that matter..TRUST ME IF I WANTED THE TYPE CORRECTLY, I WOULD HAVE DONE IT WITH NO PROBLEMS…and as far as childish insults, I can insult u 10x worse then that..but it will just be better if i could say it to your face…and realize how many @’s i placed behind my name…OMG, that means i don’t know how to type the ENGLISH language…B*TCH I speak 4 langauges…English, French, and 2 african languages…so don’t even try to insult my inteligence based on me typing on a blog…and @YOUHDWINDOWS thanks making that point..

    • Davidohio

      Maybe you should get a Nopkia 1661? They are nice. If you download the skyfire browser it has flash.

    • ItsMichaelNotMike

      Why are you even in this thread? Your post has no value whatsoever and no one gives a fook what you think about the HD2.

      Sheesh, quit with the thread crapping.

      You do know that this is a T-Mobile fan site, where people discuss um… let me see, oh…. T-Mobile news.

      Got it? Get the fook out of here.

  • queeny

    The hd2 is nice, but of course it is going to look like a powerhouse or be the best especially when all the other phones on the network are $hitty! Now picture a world where we actually had other powerhouses on the network that we could actually choose from. But all in all thank god tmobile finally has one respectable phone!

  • Raj

    Many of the blogs are saying the HD2 is not performing up to the expectation and they have been returning their HD2s. Lot of Hangs and hard reboots. Wondering how much of this is true.

    • GatorDon

      Overall this phone has been greate, but I have had a few hangups and had to do a couple of hard reboots. Hopefully these things will get ironed out, but overall this is a great device and I am enjoying it a lot.

    • ItsMichaelNotMike

      Starting with your comment, none of it.

      This is starting to look like the anti-healthcare websites, just make stuff up.

  • jinishans

    I’m going to upgrade my iPhone 3G to HD2, as I was longing for Flash and anyway I want to go with WP7 when it comes. I dont’ want to deal with N1, as we already knew it has lot of hardware issues.

  • BenNYC

    Radio Shack has it for $150.00. $50.00 less then T Mobile!

  • Cybersedan

    I knew this would happen, I ordered mine yesterday as well… Have the Nexus One but I’m getting the HD2 for the multimedia stuff and the screen size. Size does matter, it made my N1 look small side-by-side.

  • Drizzle

    The reason I’m hearing people like this phone so much is because how well HTC hides windows mobile….mmmkay. I’m sure its nice though, really.

    • ItsMichaelNotMike

      A true statement, HTC Sense is a shell or user interface. I would describe it as a “mini OS” because it provides all the functionality one would want to use on a smartphone, from e-mail, the home page (e.g., tab bar and quick links), photo viewer, media players, animated weather, Facebook, Twitter, etc.

      HTC Sense is a big deal for HTC, so much so that “HTC Sense” is embossed on the HD2’s battery cover.

      HTC Sense is so popular that iPhone users developed a hack so to put it on their iPhones.

      I used HTC Sense on my Touch Pro2 and it is one of the main reasons I got the HD2.

      I made some videos of HTC Sense in action:

  • c

    Trying it out in store convinced me not to buy it. I’ll stick with my N1. Great looking phone though. WM isn’t that bad and gets a lot of support from devs so you who bought it should have fun.

    • MoJo..HD@

      THANK YOU FOR THE GOOD COMMENT…thanks for not bashing this phone my friend…you tried it, didn’t like and you moved on and wished us joy with ours…once more thank you..unlike some other ppl using android..

      • mmaxxsooner

        Yes, it was a nice backhanded comment. Really, you were sucker enough to by the nexus1 500$+ ( oh and I can’t get a 3g signal) and call that nice? People are fools and google android just suck them in sssssuuuuccckkk! Hd2 rules this game nexus1 sucks love it android fans!

  • Mingilicious

    David, thanks for all that you do. It’s great to see people so passionate about technology. I am also excited for T-Mobile. I was on the fence for quite a while about this phone… but thanks to your steady coverage, I was able to gradually come to a decision after weighing all the facts. I thought I would die without Android, but I am rather excited for a new OS to learn and play with.

    Those who have OS complaints, XDA forums are your friend. If there is anyone half as brilliant as Steve (Cyanogen) doing work on Windows Mobile, I’m sure this is going to be an even more scintillating experience.

    As I type this from my G1, I must admit that I will miss a physical keyboard… but I will learn to love that big fat screen and the glory that is Swype. I made my phone order yesterday morning, and I can’t wait until my phone arrives next week.

  • bjfam83

    This phone is killing the comp!

  • Jshin

    @ Bobomo have you ever heard of skyfire? Just Google it and check it out. No “mobile web on that browser. It is actual internet and has MS silver light and flash and it gets better and better each update. I highly recommend anyone with the HD2 or any Windows phone to go to and check it out. also if you go to go to forums, locate the Touch Pro 2 (Rhodium) and go to apps section and one of the first posts is chalk full of apps. Check the HD2 section 2 for apps,wallpapers and ROMS. Hit the link for a ROM I would recommend. Please read the post and follow the instructions or you may brick your phone.

    • Bobomo

      I’m specifically referring to Flash 10.1, which includes hardware graphics acceleration – something that will be very important for video and battery life. I’m not saying, like many others, that WM6.5 is a “dead platform”. Lots of people will be doing lots of interesting stuff over the next year or so. However, when major players like Mozilla and Adobe bow out, it’s hard for me to get too excited about the latest pretty ROM. The guys at XDA are supremely talented, but they aren’t going to be innovating the mobile marketplace like Google et al. will.

      • rushmore

        Flash 10.1 is amazing. I have seen it on the Nexus and N900. Performs great on both. The HD2 was “born” to have Flash 10.1, so a shame if it does not make it. The current best verison of FLash for phones is 9.4 on the N900 and Flash 10.1 is WAY WAY better- no comparison. Performs as good as it does on a netbook (Flash 10.1 beta).

        Games and Hulu content play perfectly and content that chokes on the N900 is smooth as butter. Higher res movies choke, but they do on netbooks and low end lappies as well.

  • ken

    Me and my girlfriend bought two HD2 yesterday from tmobile retail store. To be honest the phone itself is good but the OS is sucks. I like android better than wm. So we decided to return both phone today and i was suprise when the tmobile sale representative told me that “i knew it!, your the 5th person who return hd2 today and that was expected” lol. BTW im not complaining, im just sharing my opinion/experienced/point of view.

    • Tig

      Umm how exactly does the OS suck? I am thinking you are just regurgitating garbage you heard on the web. So please do list all the problems that make this OS suck? I am very interested to hear your comprehensive list.

  • andrew

    im sure that there is going to be a hd3 look at the sales on its first day

    • RayLebron

      I believe it was pretty clear that there was going to be a succesor of this phone before launch. This phone got a lot of people interrsted with its awesome screen realestate and incedible specs. The most important aspect of this phone is that it set the new standard on how big a screen can be and how capable and versatile a device is. This launch numbers also show how customers are looking for cutting edge tech and how a company can give new life to an almost extinct platform. Just my “dos centavos” ladies and gents.

  • RayLebron

    I got mine yesterday and am still trying to get the hang of it. Seems like an awesome phone. I havent download any apps but would like to know if there is a way to use Buzz on Google Maps. Thanks in advance and enjoy your phones.

    • Ruiner

      You just need to download the newest version of Google Maps to use Buzz. The installed version that comes stock on the phone is 3.2.1. You need the 4.x version to use Buzz. Just download the .cab and install.

  • Teddy

    I got my HD2, and I’m loving it! It’s AMAZING.
    but, is anyone else’s Start Button (the one in the middle) not working?
    it’s on and off on functioning right…..but it’s not really working.

    • Joe

      My Start button stopped working at one point but after a reboot it has not done it again.

  • Scott

    Is it true amazon is selling it for $99?

    • poopman

      ya it is i just looked but its for new service and its $200 for extension of contract.

    • Bobomo

      Lots of places are selling it for less than T-Mobile, provided you are opening a new line of service. This is because (I’m kind of guessing here) they get a cut of the signup fees and the ETF, should you cancel.

      For upgrades, the prices are mostly the same, although I think Amazon is around $175.

    • Davidohio

      Walmart here had it for $99.99 for new activations today. Not upgrades :(

  • Johny

    I don’t understand the Roms thing they aren’t official up dates but hacked ones right?nd will it mess up the phone?

    • ItsMichaelNotMike


      The HD2 ROMS are for the European HD2 (“E. HD2”). You can brick your phone if you install a ROM meant for a different device.

      Are there differences? I dunno, but I am not going to risk my new HD2 to find out.

      For example on differences, some of the custom ROMS unlock the extra RAM that turns out was on the first HD2s. (In others words, the E. HD2 has the same amount of RAM as the T-Mobile HD2). Will the unlocking instructions that frees up the RAM conflict with the T-Mo ROM because it already has the ROM available? I dunno, but it might.

      Moreover, the ROM chips could be different. We have 1GB ROM, does that mean the ROM architecture (circuitry) is different than the E. HD2 that has 512MB ROM? I dunno, it might.

      And the really big difference is the apps that the ROMS install. The T-Mobile HD2 has many apps that the E. HD2 does not have. If you install an E. HD2 ROM you will be wiping out or writing over (uninstalling in a way) the T-Mo apps. They will be gone and lost forever and you would be stuck with the apps that come with the E. HD2.

      So we should wait for XDA to come up with ROMS meant for the U.S. HD2.

  • Mike V

    i got my phone yesterday afternoon and coming from a g1, its insanely sick man! i went to work today and showed it to all the iphone lovers and all but one of them want to jump ship just to get one. this has to be the baddest phone ive ever ever had.

  • Willy M.

    I went and sold my hacked iphone and five minutes later waited for tmobile to open to get this phone at 9am. Only one guy was ahead of me and he had it reserved so let me go in front of him. Gotta say once I started figuring it all out and sense I love this phone way more than my iphone. Selling my hacked iPhone and having enough to buy this beast plus cash left over = win.

  • Nain

    i went to tmobile 9AM. and they opened at 10AM, i was first in line, at about 9:45 there were 20 people behind me, i know some people left unhappy

    BTW off topic real quick (sorrY)

    im having crazy battery issue… in the first hour it went from 100% to about 80% with barely even touching it…and yes i have wifi off, bluetooth off, gps off, all tasks killed, dimmed screen, any tips on improving battery life??

    a quick question, can i turn 3G off?? so its only edge dadta connection??

    • ItsMichaelNotMike

      I believe in the Settings you can tell the HD2 to stick to 2G only. Not sure, but check it out under the network settings or something like that.

      On the battery, I suspect that the display uses a lot of battery power.

  • Jose

    i bought this phone and really didnt like the whole windows 6.5 it kept freezing on me battery sucks and just windows sucks lol i returned it the same day
    i tryed it but i guess it wasnt for me.

    • Tig

      If it froze there was a problem with the device. I have been installing tons of apps and beating up my phone since the second I got it and have not had a single freeze. I am really thinking there is a bad batch of HD2s floating around.

  • tchez27

    Got my phone yesterday and it was working great until I came across youtube. My youtube app has been stuck on downloading since 8pm yesterday and will not do anything else no matter what I try. I tried using it in 2g, 3g and wifi and none of it worked. I checked my internet connection and that was fine, my browser works. I tried killing all tasks, clearing out the browser history, restarting the phone, taking out the batter while on to reset it and last but not least, called Tmo to see if they had any issues in my area with 3G or anyone else had this issue. Unfortunately Im the only beneficiary and will probably need to return it for an exchange. Before I do I’m going to try doing a master reset. the tmo rep told me I need to power it off, hold the volume rocker and call end/power button at the same time and when it starts it should prompt me to reset and then I hit the volume rocker up buttong. All this does is give me a red, green and blue screen with some numbers and doesnt allow me to reset it. I started the phone back up and it works fine after this, all but youtube still. Has anyone else had this issue or know how to properly master reset the phone. None of the instruction books that came with it tell you how and I havent been able to find anything on the net on how to do it. Tmonews peeps, rescue me please.

    • tato22

      i had a problem with the blockbuster app it was not working i did a hard-reset and it fix everything now am good try that it might fix it hope it dose you tube on this baby is nice super nice go into settings and look in storage the reset is there i think

    • mouse6nelson

      You need to hold up and down on the volume rocker then press power button while still holding up and down on the rocker until the reset instructions come up. The red green and blue screen comes up when you only hold down on the volume rocker and press power button. This screen is used for flashing new roms.

    • jdog

      “Two Words my friend “Nexus One”

  • tchez27

    Warning for those of you who dont have the HD2 yet. when you go into certain apps it will prompt you to install updates i.e. blockbuster, mobitv etc. Make sure when you update mobitv you do not save it to your storage card. The update will prompt you to save it to the devive or storage card. If you do storage card it will not open, it will tell you it is missing a certificate or folder (something like that) and will tell you, you need to re-install it. I had to call mobitv and have them send me the install link via text to get it to work. The second time I saved it to my device and its been working fine since.

    Sorry if someone already posted this but I havent seen it on this thread.

    • ItsMichaelNotMike

      Very helpful post.

      Generally, especially when you have 1GB of ROM space, it’s best to always choose to install apps and programs to your “device” or ROM and NOT to the microSD card (storage).

      I can’t recall an app where the developer said it’s OK to install it to the SD card. All say to make sure to install it to the “device.”

      While apps can in fact install on an SD card when you try to use them they will not work. This is most likely because you installed it on “storage” (aka microSD card).

      If you run into this problem simply uninstall the app and reinstall on to the device, handset or ROM (Note: When the option comes up on where you want to install the app some developers call the ROM “handset” others say “device”).

  • harvey

    is anyone else’s text messaging cause the phone to freeze? I have read that the Euro version had this issue, but dont know if there is a fix…

    i like the phone alot, but do feel a little intimidated by it :)

    • Jose

      i had the same problem every time i would try to text it would freeze and i would have to take out the battery.

  • tato22

    i got 2 of these and i have my nexus one on a diff line man it feels good having both now the hd2 is a really nice phone i cant stop playing with it battery last me almost all day with alot of use

  • Ricardo

    Since no one has said this yet, I will. “Can’t we all just get along?”
    I love Android with a passion but i love T-Mobile more. The best android phone on t-mobile was the CLIQ. I’ve gone from the Dash to Sidekick slide to bb pearl to G1 to BB8900 to TP2 to ClIq and now HD2; selling one to get to another. As of yesterday, hands down, even the biggest WM 6.5 critic has to agree that the HD2 is the best phone in T-Mobile’s line up. It is that reason alone that i now own the phone. As long as T-mobile continues to provide me with a great plan, and great customer support, i will buy their best phone and say thank you very much. I have more loyalty for the carrier then the phone cause it’s not as if T-mobile is still pushing the Razor. I’ll be the first to admit that the Evo looks very sexy but i will never, ever, ever, ever switch carriers for just a phone. All i can hope for is that in 6-7 months, while i can still sell my hd2 for a reasonable price, T-mobile gives us a beast of an Android phone. But for now, i’m rockin my HD2.

    • ItsMichaelNotMike

      So that makes two so far who intend to sell their HD2s in November. :)

      While it’s speculation on what will the value of the HD2 be in 8 months, IMHO it will sell for $350 on eBay. This is because we have to base our selling price on what the phone sells for on T-Mobile, unsubsidized.

      Tracking typical depreciation, calculating the price at $100 less than the HD2 sells for today, I think that’s a conservative estimate.

      Look at the Touch Pro2. When I bought it the phone was $550 (appx.). When I sold it in February it went down to $450. I got about $380 for it which was pretty good since I paid $329 on a one year contract.

      The big question is, of course, how will all the new phones coming out affect HD2 pricing. I don’t think all that much because this is a WinMo phone and a flagship one at that. Despite what misinformed say, there will always be eBay buyers who want a WinMo device (e.g., professionals and business people).

      So I don’t think we have anything to worry about. Heck, just as an awesome multi-media player the phone is worth a lot. And on top of that it makes phone calls. That combo will always have good value. I still have two Panasonic portable DVD players that in 2002 cost me $600 each. The screen size… 4″ :(

  • HoOn

    I picked up my HD2 yesterday and today i was playing around with it when I went to work.

    It seems the battery life on it compared to my Nexus One isn’t that good. I love the hardware compared to the Nexus One. the virtual keyboard is also better than the N1. This is the first time I am playing with HTC sense and I like it. I tried to connect the outlook client to my exchange server at work but I can’t get it to work. One thing that really annoyed me today is the number of times the HD2 crashed on me. Everytime I tried to end a call the screen would freeze up! Pulling the battery was the only solution. When watching the Transformers the video was choppy. I understand that this is the stock ROM and so a much more stable and faster ROM may be available but I haven’t looked yet.

    I’m trying very hard to like this phone. We’ll see…

    • Tig

      Like I have said to many people – if your phone is doing that it’s more than likely defective. Try a few hard resets and if that doesn’t solve the problem return it for a new one. Mine runs soooo buttery smooth it’s incredible. You should have the same experience. :)

      The only time mine acted weird was when I first tried the installed games Prince of Persia and the racing one. They were jittery and just not smooth. I was disappointed but moved on to other things. I tried them again today and they play smooth now. Not sure what happened but I am happy.

  • http://bloop Mr. T

    Total sales were 26K first day sales, I know this because I know this. Look at previous posts by me for credibility for my claim.

  • Cali

    I picked mine up first thing in store on wednesday. I’ll admit I was tempted by N1 but something told me to wait. From what I’ve seen so far I have no regrets and I certainly don’t miss the mytouch. Android has plenty to offer but microsoft has been around for a few..I’ve never had any carrier other than tmo and I’d never have it any other way. I’m also an employee and I can say with certainty that this is the hottest phone to hit for awhile and I dont see a end to it anytime soon. Ppl have gone crazy.

  • tmosal

    Jshin- you’re guaranteed 3 bus. Days from the day it’s shipped. Since UPS doesn’t deliver on weekends and it was ordered today, you will have it no later than next Tuesday.

  • JBLmobileG1

    Anyone know if the HD2’s Google Maps offer turn by turn spoken directions? Also does it have an app for Google Voice? These two are musts for me aftering using Android. It stinks because Tmobile changed their upgrade pricing again so in order for me to get the best deal I need to wait until my full 2 years is up which is in another 5 months or I can wait for the third teir price next month (which I am sure is still a lot). Although I am tempted to jump to WinMobile I am hopeing they will release a killer Android phone by then… and hopefully it will be the Motoroi… that or Google realizes the Nexus One isn’t selling just through Google and let Tmobile take over. I do like my G1 I just wish it had more memory because it does do what I need for the most part… although I would like a 3.5mm jack. Maybe Tmobile should have released a newer version of the G1 instead of the MyTouch 3G. I think it would have sold pretty good if it offered a few tweeks. Maybe more memory, a 3.5mm jack, 5MP camera with flash, and adobe flash. Oh and maybe up the processor to a 1Ghz snapdragon. Let’s hope for all the Android users that Tmobile will start to carry a phone that will match the HD2.

    • DotNetCoderAZ

      “Anyone know if the HD2’s Google Maps offer turn by turn spoken directions? Also does it have an app for Google Voice?”

      No, and No. There are other voice navigators available for WinMo, one of which is Waze ( As for Google Voice, you can have it still forward to your phone, but I haven’t seen a WinMo version of it yet.

  • sweat

    This phone is the business Period. I love android BUT this phone along with the snazzy hardware has made me take into consideration of ditching android & going with windows with sense. Very well made phone & a great addition to the tmobile library. I love it & I will purchase.

    But to the cats out there that are badmouthing the device, these guys are just straight fanboys. They are as bad as the iphone clowns going around badmouthing whatever phone compares to their precious iphone. HD2 is a sleek,& very powerful device that simply has what everyone wants in a phone. MULTITASKING.

    Overall, go try it. It’s a fantastic device & worth every bit of the 200 tag!!!!

  • Lindsay Vonn

    the HD2 blows. Put Android on it for it to un-blow

    • ItsMichaelNotMike

      Lindsay, your avatar looks like you blow, literally, while wearing high heel shoes.

      • Mingilicious

        Hahahah, it actually kind of does. That’s messed up! Hahahah!!!

    • MoJO…HD@

      @LINDSAY…please make sure your statements are correct…you said the HD2 blows..(the HD2 itself is the phone/hardware…android is an OS)….so in my opinion you are saying you like the HD2…but please Shut the F*ck up and don’t hate on the OS because you like android…OMGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!…Just keep your android phone and don’t worry about this phone..its WINDOWS and there will be no taking that back..

  • TheMan42

    There’s a lot of retardation in this post, so I’ll keep my point brief. People aren’t buying this for Windows Mobile, they’re buying it because of the incredible hardware specs and screen size as well as fully loaded SD card. Nothing about Windows Mobile is attracting the main buyer. The fact its huge and eye catching and has a much cheaper price tag than anyone would imagine is the reason for great sales. No one walks in and immediately says “Oh wow Windows Mobile 6.5!” No, not at all. So stop praising the sales like this is because of WinMo 6.5 and recognize what the real reasons are. If it weren’t for SenseUI, it wouldn’t sell either.

    • MoJO…HD@

      Thank you…THEMan….we all just love this phone you android retards..and WM is just a plus for whom ever likes it(for example ME)..and for those who still got it that don’t really prefer WM…its because they like the incredible phone..Why pass up on great technology because you dont know how to use WM…android is to simple and is not a real pocket PC like the Windows OS.

    • Joe

      *looks around… hesitantly raises hand* I did buy this phone for Windows Mobile (gasp! I know). I have been using Windows Mobile on and off since it was called Windows CE and then PocketPC, back when there were no WM phones (remembers tethering my iPaq 5550 via Bluetooth to my Sony Ericsson T610 on GPRS… and thinking it was the coolest thing since sliced bread!) My last WM device was an unlocked Treo 650, then I got a G1 when it came out.

      My main gripe about smartphones these days is they have devolved from expensive devices that professionals use to conduct actual business to overpriced toys for teenagers and hipsters. I still cling to WM because it has native support for Excel and OneNote, Outlook, an official Adobe Reader app, several mature web browsers to choose from, and it ACTUALLY SYNCS TO A COMPUTER! The GUI may not be as pretty as the iPhone or Android, but on the other hand it is not dumbed down to the point that a 4 year old could use it. Give me multitasking, give me copy/paste, give me native Exchange support, keep your fart apps and Chuck Norris soundboards for your iPhone/Android. I am not one bit disappointed that the HD2 will not get WP7S. Zune integration? Xbox Live built in? Sounds like a toy. No copy/paste? Have fun looking at your Excel spreadsheets, you certainly won’t be editing anything.

      I suppose that I am in the minority here, but I actually want to be productive on my phone. I don’t want to use a bunch of 3rd party paid apps and workarounds to open standard file formats, and I want to be able to keep all of my business info synced across my phone, desktop, and tablet (yes, an actual Tablet PC, not an iPod Touch on steroids). Google’s cloud syncing doesn’t really cut it for me; I don’t see Google as an Office replacement, nor do I want to send business email from my Gmail account. Don’t get me wrong, I love the Goog, but for other purposes.

      Although I did not buy my HD2 for the flashiness, I am still looking forward to the next time some Apple fanboi tries to wow me with their pretty iPhone and I wipe the smug grin off their face with my HD2 :)


      • Gizmalien

        That’s pretty much why I bought it. One of the biggest problems I’ve found with Windows Mobile over the years has been the underpowered hardware that they were loading it on. It’s like taking a Ford F-250 body and throwing throwing a 4 cylinder engine in it and expecting it to still haul massive payloads. Every WinMo device I’ve ever had, I’ve installed cooked roms on it to get rid of the carrier bloatware, and I’m sure I’ll end up doing the same to the HD2 eventually. But until then, I’ll have fun pushing the HD2 to it’s limits and doing actual work on it instead of being tied down to my desk constantly.

    • DotNetCoderAZ

      Sure, and the common user knows what Android is over WinMo? Seriously… ask any “common” person what O/S their phone runs and 95% of the time you’ll get a blank stare. People still ask me questions like “are you running Droid?” (notice the lack on an “a” in there). They think that the Motorola Droid IS the operating system. When I correct them and state that Droid is the hardware and Android is the operating system, they usually glaze over and fade out quickly.

      My point is that your comment about “No one walks in and…” is pure BS. It’s all about how the phone’s shell is presented. People, aside from the ones that know and care what O/S they are running, could give a crap about WinMo, Android, Maemo, Symbian, or any other O/S.

      The Cliq, with MotoBlur, attracts people… The iPhone with it’s iconic desktop attracts people… The HD2 with SenseUI attracts people…

      Go FUD and hate somewhere else.

      • jdog

        @DotNetCoderAZ You mean HTC’s Sense attracts people but let tell you a secret don’t tell anybody but if you want your next phone to have Sense its going to have to be Android. That alone would tell me to buy an Android because HTC is not going to use it anymore after Windows 6.5 and I really like it. Also cause I know what your thinking and yes I do have a Nexus One and a HD2 so don’t give me that crap about I can’t talk since I don’t have a “Windows” I mean “HTC Sense” phone.

      • DotNetCoderAZ

        @jdog: Yes, SenseUI does attract people. But, saying that HTC is not going to use it “after” WinMo 6.5 is an incorrect statement. We know that 6.5 is going to be rebranded into the WP7S series as either Classic or Starter. In either case, the O/S itself is not going to be retired anytime soon. So, HTC will most likelyt continue to develop SenseUI beyond 2.5 for the WinMo platform. HTC has never announced that they are going to discontinue development for it on the Windows platform and go exclusivly with Android. That is nothing but speculation on your part.

        I’m not going to give you crap about owning both devices. I’m multi-platform too. I’ll only bash you when you bash the O/S that still makes me a paycheck… Deal? ;-)

  • ItsMichaelNotMike

    Here… they made a movie about all this WinMo / Android nonsense:

  • ItsMichaelNotMike

    And one more version:

  • Dan

    All of you HD2 owners out there; do you know if there is any legitimate GPS application for the HD2? One thing that I am going to want if I buy the HD2 is a good GPS application, other than Telenav. I really do not want to pay the Telenav monthly fee, and much rather pay once, and have the software on the phone.
    Does anybody have any suggestions; perhaps based on personal experience? Thanks.

    BTW, I called a Tmo stores in Fresno, CA and they were all sold out :(. One store said they only had 5 of them. Wtf!

    • Richard

      HD2 has both Google maps and also uses Bing as well – both of which have turn-by-turn nav.

    • DotNetCoderAZ

      Waze is pretty good:

  • Richard

    So let me inject a little sense into this thread. There is a point to be made that T-MoNews has gone HD2 crazy. But it’s certainly a littl expected when the fact of the matter is that the HD2 might be the most anticipated device just about ever sold BY T-Mobile themselves and obviously there are a lot of people that are digging this phone just by the hardware itself.

    There is also something to be said for the fact that it is a dead-end phone, by the OS or that it may not be necessarily supported so much with the exception of some 3rd party application. We don’t know yet.

    The funny thing is that people love what they love….. and are so easily willing to attack others when they don’t.

    Android fans attack Apple fans… and the funny thing is that when Android was really the only game on T-Mo pretty much everyone stuck together here in their hatred of Apple because for the most part nobody here had an iPhone.

    Now something else comes along and divides the T-Mo faithful and those that pretty much stood by Android are now attacking those that still stand by Android… who have become as bad as iPhone fans because they think their shat don’t stank.

    I’ll admit that Android to me is the best OS out there. HOWEVER…… as of right now T-Mo has failed horribly in actually getting us a good Android phone. For all of you that are screaming that you wish the HD2 had Android on it. It does. It’s called the Supersonic and it will be coming to a Sprint store near you. I may join you there if I end up not liking my HD2 and I’m still figuring that out myself.

    I think it may be very easy for people to get caught up in the big screen and the big hardware… but after a few days, or maybe a couple of weeks… I wonder how many people will still be singing the praises of a phone that is rather weak when it comes to the software side, or when they figure out that other than a big flashy screen….. there’s really not much to the phone.

    Granted, it is STILL the best offering on T-Mobile and there doesn’t seem to be anything on the horizon that’s better. So until something else does come along, why can’t some of you just figure out that it’s best to get along.

    Again, you like what you like… and there’s little sense in trying to convince someone else that they don’t.